Belgian Police adopt S&W M&P 9mm

This is a blog post I never thought I would write! Despite having the home field advantage, FN Herstal lost out on a contract to supply the Belgian Federal Police with pistols. Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm won the competition to replace the aging FN/Browning GP-35 (Hi-Power).

FNH, who have been laying off workers after losing contacts, are not happy. Lesoir.be reports (Translated Using Google) ...

Guy Francis, Senior Associate FGTB Metal. Which shows bitter: "It's a bit sad not to be a benchmark in our own country. The policy we already puts a spoke in the wheels for export licenses, if even now does not favor federal police in Belgium, where are we going to sell weapons? "

Gabriel SmaI, principal secretary to the CSC Metal Liège-Huy-Ware, "it is regrettable that the police do not equips a company owned 100% by the Walloon Region. This will particularly impact in terms of image. A bit like the Italian police were driving in a Renault Fiat rather than ... "

Misplaced nationalism? This is the view of Vincent Gilles, national president of the SLFP-Police, for whom he had to choose the best weapon.

[ Many thanks to Famas for emailing me the link. ]

Can surplus Hi-Powers be far behind?

Wow on a number of fronts.

As the article translation indicates, there is a tremendous political and cultural division in Belgium at this time. I’ve got to wonder if the political issues may have had something to do with the S&W win.

My assumption is Herstal (as in FN-Herstal) is French speaking and the National Police may have a strong Dutch speaking Flemish leadership.

Basically, no one is in charge… It is like Somalia in reverse. The country is relatively good economic shape but instead of fighting to lead the country, people are fighting not to lead (and potentially divide).

Odd. I had a M&P 9 and hated it. Sold it, bought a FNP45, love it.

well, i certainly chose the fnx-9 over the m&p. can’t see why anyone would pick the m&p over the fnx… just my 2¢

4cammer: I hope so!

Pete, I’m a radical libertarian, and I’m glad that Belgians realized they don’t need “wise and great leaders” in charge to control their lives.

Hopefully they won’t rust like the M&Ps S&W sold to the Detroit Police.

Yeah, odd. The FN handguns are sadly underrated. You’d think they’d at least get more appreciation in their native country. Especially since they can be operated the same way as a Browning Hi Power, which would ease the transition. Well, sorry Belgian cops. More for me, I guess. I love a rugged polymer firearm with all the modern convenience features, that can still be carried cocked & locked like an old school Hi Power or a 1911. Best of all worlds, really.

No real surprise if you are actually picking the handgun based on merit. It’s no coincidence that there are umpteen times more people competing with M&Ps compared to FNP/FXPs. I can’t remember the last time I saw someone competing with an FNP who is not sponsored by FN.

I own both an FNP and multiple M&Ps. If you are just bullseye shooting on a static range, I guess an FNP could be considered “better” for some people based on it’s better trigger. But the M&P’s trigger can be easily improved, and the M&P’s better ergonomics and lower bore axis are the reason why it is so much more popular in competitions and more “practical” shooting.

@Pete,

You gathered all that from the little bit of translation?

I actually was at a Federal Academy in Belgium a few month back for work, and had a talk about the sidearm chage with the guys there.

First, they already had a mix of old GPs (a few), gen2/3 Glock 17/19 (a lot) and HP-DA (you yanks know them as BDA). So going for a new handgun for everyone is a good idea. Thats in the same optic as the French Police going for the Sig 2022.

Second, the M&P9 was already chosen by the time i was there, but the Police Unions weren’t cool with the fact that it had been chosen by “pencil pushers” up in the food chain, so the guns went back on the testing range with the “frontline” guys. If the M&P9 prevailed again, that must mean it is the weapon for the job.

Third, last time the Belgian Federales bought anything from FN was when they got P90s and Five seveNs in the very early 90s.
I think the guys at FN are just pissed off because they keep losing contracts to other manufacturers, or to no real reason at all (SCAR, IAR…)

Pete gives us a perfect summary of the actual situation in Belgium, and indeed probably a “flemish” decision (the current minister responsible for the federal police is flemish) against the FN Herstal, 100 % owned by the French speaking region Wallonia.

Sounds a bit like the same story as their neighbors in Holland with the Sig Sauer.

See: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/03/14/hk-and-walther-take-dutch-government-to-court/

This maybe explains why the former chief of Police from Belgium gets away with spending 92.000 Euro (!!) on a week trip to a Qatar conference, maybe he got some more bonuses.

See:http://translate.google.nl/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hbvl.be%2Fnieuws%2Fbinnenland%2Faid1024794%2Ffernand-koekelberg-mocht-maar-35-000-euro-uitgeven-aan-reis.aspx&sl=nl&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8

Head of Belgian Police Mr. Koekelberg resigned recently after all the comments he received.

Does someone know if S&W was present at the Qatar conference?

PS The Steyr AUG they use (picture) is a 9mm Conversion, you could see this from the magazine.

Oh and for those waiting for suplus hi-power : first of all, the ones the federal police have are pretty used up. They’ve had them for a long time (they are mostly surplus and rebuilds that came frome the former federal police, the Gendarmerie) and they will be used as spare parts for the local and regional services that are still using the BHP as their main sidearm.

Why did you remove my comments these are facts?

Let the agencies choose the best gun for the task and let it be. Politics do not belong in the gun procurement business. Anyone remember WWI, WWII, Vietnam, present day wars? Politics + buying guns = the soldier/cop gets jipped out of a functional weapon.

Who ever meets the most requirements for the lowest price should get the contract. Save national pride for other political agendas.

@ FNH,

Instead of whining like a bunch of preschoolers why dont you guys make better guns and win more contracts? That philosophy has been working for all your competitors. Man the heck up, fix your design (if the design is the problem) and move on. But stop whining that nobody likes you anymore.

Seems they (FNH) are a little bitter about a US weapon be used by their government, they better be careful how much they complain, as it is a lot like the US government buying a whole lot of military small arms from a certain Belgian firm…FNH.

Can’t wait for the glut of surplus Hi-Powers.

I have several Hi-Powers (both 9mm and .40 S&Ws) and a S&W M&P-9. I never thought anything could displace my HP-9 in my affections, but the S&W is on its way to doing just that. Both have lousy triggers out of the box (the HP being the worst) and both can be easily fixed but if the Belgian litigation climate is anything like the one here in the US, they’re probably loathe to remove the HP’s intrusive and annoying mag disconnect. All the S&W requires is essentially a drop-in Apex or similar trigger. The S&W is slightly easier to field strip and clean, and its mags hold marginally more rounds than the HP’s. I’ll certainly never get rid of my HPs but suspect that, over time, I’ll be shooting them more for nostalgia purposes than for sheer fun.

To each their own, but there isn’t anything wrong with my trigger or the bore axis on my fnx… I tried both, and the fnx felt much better in my hand

While I also prefer to own guns made in my own country (in this case the USA) I am not surprised that the M&P was selected. It is a very ergonomic, accurate and reliable handgun. It’s eating up the police market here and will surely get more than one contract abroad.

Well at least the Belgian military will carry HPs for years longer. Im surprised we beat out the Belgians themselves with FN being a Belgian company go USA.

Peter, nobody removed your comment.

This is not such a big surprise to me. FN really don’t make interesting handguns other than the Five-seveN, but it’s a too specialized weapon and I suppose the Belgian police was looking for something more conventional (and probably cheaper).

But talking about the Five-seveN, it’s time to FN to update it and the P-90… maybe the F2000 too. Yeah, FN really should stick to their oddballs they really show their creativity.

@Clairon. If the French government would have had the same mentality as the unions of FN when they ordered 10.000 MAG machine guns FN would have been dissapeared long time ago. But hey they probably ordered Belgian weapons because French minister of defence is a Walloon!!!! The idea that the decision not to buy the FNP (a weapon designed and made in the USA by the way) is some sort of Flemish “complot” against a Walloon owned company is rediculous. Its a fact that the FNP is at the moment not a succes among police forces, compared to Glocks, S&W etc…. Belgium is not the only country not choosing for the FNP. So. FN lost a competition today. I am sure it will win a competition tomorrow. A company like FN who exports 99% of what it produces has everything to loose from protectionism or nationalistic nonsense.

Complaining when FN loses countries in other countries because of protectionism and few days later asking for protectionism is well inconsequent. I ‘ve had it with Flemish idiots that say we are controlled by Walloon socialists and I’ve had with French speakers who say we are controlled by Flemish.

I agree with Nathan, and can’t wait to buy a few more Hi-Power pistols. The M&P is an OK pistol, albeit more modern than the HP. I wonder which companies other than FNH were in the running.

I really enjoy FN’s Machine gun, but handgun…………noway, I want a FN. SW ,Glock or P99 will be my choice.

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MI Cops Treat Taser-Seeking Citizens Like Children

I don’t carry a Taser. It’s one too many weapons systems for me. But if someone wants to carry a stun gun instead of gun, or in addition to a gun, why not? More specifically, if Michigan allows its citizens to carry concealed firearms, why would the po-po object to law-abiding members of the general public carrying a Taser? Reporter Heather Lynn Peters of The Muskegon Chronicle asked two top cops why they oppose civilian stun guns. Their answers reveal that the Wolverine State’s concealed carry laws have done sweet FA to alter the attitude of authoritarian condescension infecting local law enforcement . . .

“I think it’s a bad thing,” said [Muskegon County Sheriff’s Department Deputy Jeff] Blackmer, who has been a stun gun instructor for the sheriff’s office since 2009. “It’s bad enough to keep kids away from knives and firearms.

“People might treat (stun guns) like toys and they’re dangerous. There is an awful lot of power,” he said . . .

A Taser could be used for just about anything — an armed robbery, a car-jacking, any violent crime. They are far more persuasive than a knife,” he said.

And Deputy Blackmer’s logic is about as persuasive as the ATF’s logic for launching Operation Fast and Furious. Again, if adults can handle deadly weapons, why not not-so-deadly weapons? Because A) they’re too stupid and B) they might fall into the wrong hands. Gotcha.

So here we are again: legislative control to control criminal access to dangerous weapons, and stop people from doing dumb things with objects that can make others go owee. How’s that working out for ya at the moment? According to these 1960 – 2009 Michigan crime stats, same as it ever was.

While a Taser is arguably more “persuasive” than a knife, I know which one I’d rather face. More generally, where did Blackmer get the idea that protecting people from themselves—rather than each other—is a policeman’s proper role? Have we as a society decided that cops are now substitute parents and full-time social workers, not law enforcers?

Take it from someone who lived in the UK for 18 years, treating adults as children—the “Nanny state” philosophy—is a direct path to tyranny. Meanwhile, as always, beware the “reasonable man” . . .

Muskegon County Undersheriff Dan Stout said he sees “both sides” of the issue.

“I can see where people say, ‘I don’t want to kill somebody, but I want to protect my family,’” Stout said. “On the other hand, I can see people getting a false sense of security, too, and maybe not waiting for local law enforcement to get there. They need to let the true professionals take over.” . . .

His only concern about allowing “citizen Tasers” is the possibility that someone hit by a stun gun might recover more quickly than expected and cause trouble for the stun gun owner.

“In law enforcement, we train our people to react when we deploy a Taser and subdue a suspect,” Rosema said.

“You as a private citizen, you have to deal with the reaction of just Tasing somebody, and it’s usually not an enjoyable event for a person who has just been Tased.”

Hubris much? Honestly, someone needs to sit these cops down and explain the intersection of Darwinism and the U.S. Constitution, if you know what I mean.

Robert Farago is the Publisher and Managing Editor of The Truth About Guns (TTAG). He started the site to explore the ethics, morality, business, politics, culture, technology, practice, strategy, dangers and fun of guns.

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